Kominka

A forum for DIY, cars, pets and all things related to home life
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BrettRas
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Re: Kominka

Post by BrettRas »

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:42 am


I didn't realise the frame was not woven, is there a specific reason for that or it's just how it's done ?
Can't say I know the original thinking, but seems to me it is quick and easy to tie it into place between the structural members. Weaving it in those spaces sounds like a tough task to me. Also the rope holds the bamboo in place so you can make nice even spacing of gaps. Then you've also got the rope giving a little extra grip to the earth.
Ibaraki llama wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:16 pm

I was reading your blog and you mentioned using the fermented persimmon and pine soot on the exterior wood - what is the difference between using this versus leaving it as is and not painting at all, or using another product? Is there added protection or is it mainly an aesthetic thing?
The kakishibu and pine soot is protection/preservative against water/rain/insect. It's called shibuzumi (渋墨) Just like yaki-sugi (burning the outer surface of the cedar). This is what gives the black color to traditional exterior woodwork that you see on old homes/castles, etc around Japan (or at least it was traditionally, I'm sure some places don't use the real thing anymore). If you want more insect protection you can add bengara (iron oxide). That is often used on underfloor structural components especially.
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Ibaraki llama
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Re: Kominka

Post by Ibaraki llama »

BrettRas wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:45 pm
The kakishibu and pine soot is protection/preservative against water/rain/insect. It's called shibuzumi (渋墨) Just like yaki-sugi (burning the outer surface of the cedar). This is what gives the black color to traditional exterior woodwork that you see on old homes/castles, etc around Japan (or at least it was traditionally, I'm sure some places don't use the real thing anymore). If you want more insect protection you can add bengara (iron oxide). That is often used on underfloor structural components especially.
Thanks very much. Could I apply a kakishibu without the soot to give the same protection? The reason I ask is that I'm thinking of coating the house we bought (it's a 30 year old minka) but I'm not sure that black would suit it.

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BrettRas
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Re: Kominka

Post by BrettRas »

Ibaraki llama wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:15 pm
Thanks very much. Could I apply a kakishibu without the soot to give the same protection? The reason I ask is that I'm thinking of coating the house we bought (it's a 30 year old minka) but I'm not sure that black would suit it.
It won't give you the same level of protection with just kakishibu, though it does help. Kakishibu was often used in waterproofing paper and umbrellas and such, but I think it must have taken application of many more layers. I've found it to wear through too quickly for rainy locations if used just by itself. You can make a variety of shades of brown though by mixing the bengara and shibuzumi together in different proportions. I've done that in several locations with good results. Can go all the way to bright reds if you go with just kakishibu and bengara.
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Re: Kominka

Post by Ibaraki llama »

Thanks very much - brown would do the trick.

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Re: Kominka

Post by Tora »

Ibaraki llama wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:55 pm
Thanks very much - brown would do the trick.
You can darken kakishibu by throwing some old (or new maybe) nails in your kakishibu tub. It will darken with time. I get a purple-brownish gray pretty soon after adding some rusty old nails to my kakishibu or adding more kakishibu to the nails in my kakishibu tub. If left overnight it will be black (a bit on the purple spectrum maybe). Over time it will coagulate in which case I add some fresh kakishibu, mix it up real good, and pretend not to notice any lumps that might remain. I’m guessing you could slow or stop the darkening by removing the nails (I’m guessing it’s the iron causing the reaction).

I’m enjoying using all these traditional materials and methods and sometimes combining them and seeing what happens.

Sorry I’m pretty primitive and don’t know how to post pics here from my cutting edge communication device or I’d throw up some visuals.

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Re: Kominka

Post by Tora »

BrettRas wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:32 pm

It won't give you the same level of protection with just kakishibu, though it does help. Kakishibu was often used in waterproofing paper and umbrellas and such, but I think it must have taken application of many more layers. I've found it to wear through too quickly for rainy locations if used just by itself. You can make a variety of shades of brown though by mixing the bengara and shibuzumi together in different proportions. I've done that in several locations with good results. Can go all the way to bright reds if you go with just kakishibu and bengara.
I’m guessing you get the red with red bengara. I have some black bengara someone gave me too. You tried that?
Are there any general ratios or recipes you follow in mixing the kakishibu and bengara?

Do you have a recommended source for kakishibu? I’ve been buying from a kyoto supplier via amazon at ¥2500/2l. I still need to get under the house and do termite prevention before the wife calls in a hit from the exterminator (fortunately haven’t seen any termites this year and I’ve got a plan to dry out the subfloor area by blowing air from th attic under the subfloor to make it more inhospitable for them in the long run).

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Zasso Nouka
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Re: Kominka

Post by Zasso Nouka »

Tora wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:45 pm
Sorry I’m pretty primitive and don’t know how to post pics here from my cutting edge communication device or I’d throw up some visuals.
Upload them to a photo hosting service like Tiny Pic or any of the other photo hosting/sharing sites and they will normally give you a link you can drop into a post

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Re: Kominka

Post by Ibaraki llama »

Tora wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:57 pm
I’ve got a plan to dry out the subfloor area by blowing air from th attic under the subfloor to make it more inhospitable for them in the long run).
I'm thinking of doing something similar for winter to make use of the heat that goes into the attic. Use pipes with a pipe fan to pull the heat under the floor with floor vents to let the heat rise back up through the house.

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BrettRas
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Re: Kominka

Post by BrettRas »

Tora wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:45 pm

You can darken kakishibu by throwing some old (or new maybe) nails in your kakishibu tub. It will darken with time. I get a purple-brownish gray pretty soon after adding some rusty old nails to my kakishibu or adding more kakishibu to the nails in my kakishibu tub. If left overnight it will be black (a bit on the purple spectrum maybe). Over time it will coagulate in which case I add some fresh kakishibu, mix it up real good, and pretend not to notice any lumps that might remain. I’m guessing you could slow or stop the darkening by removing the nails (I’m guessing it’s the iron causing the reaction).
Nice one Tora, it is the iron causing the chemical reaction to the high level of tannins in kakishibu. Rusty nails seem to do the trick quite well (after all you are oxidizing the iron anyways). You could try adding the nails to a separate jar of vinegar and creating a solution that you can then apply separately to the kakishibu. That way you don't have to open the kakishibu (which causes it to coagulate faster). You can get anywhere from rusty browns to greys to black with this process. I have a shelf in my kitchen that I finished with kakishibu and the spot where I set my kitchen knives has some blackish lines where the blade rests on the wood and reacts with the tannins. One could change the whole color by going over it with the solution made from soaking the nails. This process is often used in dying fabrics to fix the color (tetsubaisen 鉄媒染).
Tora wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:57 pm
I’m guessing you get the red with red bengara. I have some black bengara someone gave me too. You tried that?
Are there any general ratios or recipes you follow in mixing the kakishibu and bengara?

Do you have a recommended source for kakishibu? I’ve been buying from a kyoto supplier via amazon at ¥2500/2l. I still need to get under the house and do termite prevention before the wife calls in a hit from the exterminator (fortunately haven’t seen any termites this year and I’ve got a plan to dry out the subfloor area by blowing air from th attic under the subfloor to make it more inhospitable for them in the long run).
Yep, red from the red bengara. These days there are quite a variety of colors of bengara available, but originally reds. I vary the ratio based on the color and I'm looking for and don't really have a set measurement. I mostly just use the old eyeball method.

I'm currently looking for a better source for kakishibu. I have been buying the ターナー無臭 kakishibu from amazon, and it's perfectly fine stuff, I just want to avoid buying from amazon whenever possible. There are plenty of non-amazon sources out there, I just need to take some time to find a good one.

By the way, lots of good info on this site http://www.kosyokunobi.com/nakatome/nakatome.html
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Tora
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Re: Kominka

Post by Tora »

Brett,

Thanks for the tip on the vinegar and nails. I have some I’m planning to use with black tea to “age” wood. I think you’re supposed to get a grayish color but I have had so many other things going that I haven’t had time to play with it.

I’ve used the 無臭 kakishibu to dye clothes and it worked great. The regular stuff I had at that time smelled like cate puke or dog poop. I thought I heard that the unscented version was less effective in deterring insects but I cannot remember the source.

I’ll check that site you posted. Thanks.
I’ll see if I can find the invoice from the kakishibu supplier in Kyoto. If they’ll sell direct it’ll take amazon out of the equation. A friend who has a relatively successful online business selling through many different online commerce sites says, “The only one making money through amazon is amazon.”

Also, I like the image of your kitchen shelf. Usage patterns like that leave marks which someone in the distant future might consider a decoration or maybe see it as a clue or window into the life of the person who used to live there. I enjoy finding things like that at my place. and there are oh so many.