Wood Burning Stoves

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edmundedgar
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Post by edmundedgar »

We have a Nestor Martin S43, it's pretty great - it was the most luxurious spending we did on the place.

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The stove itself cost a lot, but so did the chimney. What we heard from people who'd tried to save money was that if you have a chimney that isn't insulated, the hot air hitting the cold metal causes a lot of gunk to stick to the inside, which then needs a lot of cleaning and doesn't last as long.

The company that sold us the stove also sold us the chimney and did all the fitting, and we didn't try to haggle them down at all. If you'd go so far as to consider importing a stove yourself, it's probably worth at least mentioning that to the dealer and seeing if they can make you a better offer; Everything about housebuilding in Japan seems to have a ludicrous official price; We got all the other stuff like gas boilers ourselves off the cheapest vendor on kakaku.com, and it was *way* cheaper than the list price, like 2 or 3 times. I don't know how much of this is expected to be discounted, but I suspect a lot of people just pay the official price for stuff, so it's worth it to just stick a crazy high number on everything and not discount it unless you need to.

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Post by Zasso Nouka »

............. Sorry about that.

So getting back to Nestor Martin stove, it is our favourite of the three. It stops producing smoke the quickest after lighting and has the most variable air control of them, after rereading the manual we discovered the optimum setting is between 1 and 2 on the intake dial after it gets going. At this setting it burns off the wood gas from your logs first rather than just straight burning all the wood and gives the most heat with the longest burning time.

The Dutch West/Vermont Castings stove on the other hand heats up very quickly and has a large firebox you can really pack the wood in but doesn't have the same level of air control so tends to run at max heat the whole time which can sometimes lead to windows having to be opened in the cafe to stop everyone from overheating. Don't get me wrong it's a nice stove but I like the controllability of the Nestor Martin.

The point @edmundedgar raises about double walled chimneys is pretty important. It's a good idea to have a short run of single walled chimney, say a metre or so, to recover some heat but after that it should all be double walled with internal insulation. You can also order Creosote remover that catalyses the creosote buildup into a non-flammable flaky material that is easy to clean out of the chimney.

If you do go for a Nestor Martin opt for the chimney to come out the back as it gives you a larger top surface for cooking.

As for importing you can save quite a bit even after including shipping. I don't know about your local port but at Yokohama the customs staff are incredibly helpful and will try to make the process as easy as possible if you are importing something not too unusual. Just liaise with your local staff to make sure you get all the paperwork in place before your stove is shipped over.

One other point on chimney placement, you or someone else is going to have to get up there and clean it every now and then. If you can place it somewhere that doesn't mean too much scrambling over a difficult roof that may be something to consider.

There is an interesting page explaining the different types of combustion used in stoves over at Fransis

Chuck

Wood Burning Stoves

Post by Chuck »

Thanks for the replies Zasso and edmundedgar, and all the great information!

Good point about the stoves with the catalytic screens needing replacements. The Agni-c has a two of these screens. I also am not a fan of this pricey replacement. I heard a rumor that Vermont castings is on its way out of Japan. They will still continue their Japan Dutch west division. VMC are pretty much out of my list, just really like the look of their stoves.

You mentioned cooking space, and this leads me to a question I should have asked in the first post. Do you use your stove a lot for cooking? We want our stove's first priority to be for heating but I also definitely want to use it for cooking. I like the idea of a stove having the oven compartment. My stove guy did say you can use any stoves firebox, as an oven once there is just coals left, and buy a raised platform to cook a pizza or something. Do you ever do this?

As for going out the back of the stove. I do like this idea for more cooking space but in my case it is going to be a straight chimney because of location and I have a steep roof. So, my stove guy wants it straight so that I can sweep it always from the bottom. But this worries me because I did read somewhere in this forum that somebody had a blockage of ice at the top of the chimney.

Oh, and did I mention my roof is made of straw. :( Now, probably everyone is thinking this stove is a bad idea. I'm thinking the same thing. Well, the outer side of the roof is covered with metal sheeting. I'm sure everyone has seen these kominka. I will try and upload a picture. My stove guy does reassure me they have done these types of roofs and it will be safe. The plan is to use 1 meter of single wall out of stove and than all double insulated top notch made on Japan stove pipe. And where the pipe will be around the straw, this straw will be removed and all the pipe in the attic will be wrapped with non-combustible insulation, so triple insulated. Anyone out there with a similar roof?

edmundedgar, I like that your cat likes your stove. Thanks for sharing about your S43. Do you also use it for cooking?

Good idea about first bargaining with my stove guy and saying I'm thinking of buying overseas. We are also waiting for one more estimate from another company. Hopefully this one will be not so expensive. Our estimate are including stove, chimney and installation. I am also going to say I got another estimate and see if they will match or beat the others offer.

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Post by edmundedgar »

Chuck wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:35 am
edmundedgar, I like that your cat likes your stove. Thanks for sharing about your S43. Do you also use it for cooking?
No, it doesn't have a hot plate on top, it's designed for the top not to get too hot. For cooking I think you need a different variant, which in our case would have ended up sticking out more and eating too much of our living room space. Relatedly we tried getting a little fan like these to circulate the warm air - https://www.amazon.com/stove-top-fan/s?k=stove+top+fan - but it wasn't hot enough get any breeze out of it, unlike popping it on top of a regular touyu stove.

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Post by Zasso Nouka »

Don't get me wrong Dutch West/Vermont Castings make some pretty nice stoves, I just prefer the controllability Nestor Martin has on the air inlet.
Chuck wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:35 am
As for going out the back of the stove. I do like this idea for more cooking space but in my case it is going to be a straight chimney because of location and I have a steep roof. So, my stove guy wants it straight so that I can sweep it always from the bottom. But this worries me because I did read somewhere in this forum that somebody had a blockage of ice at the top of the chimney.
No worries on that point with a Nestor Martin, they have two exit points and even if it comes out the back the chimney run will still be straight up with no 90 degree elbows. However due to the cowling on the top of the chimney to stop rain entering you are still going to have to get up there for sweeping as that's where most of our creosote builds up because the chimney is double walled but the cowling isn't so is cooler and that leads to more creosote build and the only way to clean the cowling is to get up there and clean it with a hand brush.
Chuck wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:35 am
You mentioned cooking space, and this leads me to a question I should have asked in the first post. Do you use your stove a lot for cooking? We want our stove's first priority to be for heating but I also definitely want to use it for cooking. I like the idea of a stove having the oven compartment. My stove guy did say you can use any stoves firebox, as an oven once there is just coals left, and buy a raised platform to cook a pizza or something. Do you ever do this?
We cook on ours using nabe/saucepans and Dutch ovens for roasting. If you need rapid/high heat just place your cooking nabe/saucepan/Dutch oven directly on the top then for slower/less heat slap a trivet underneath. You can also get an insert for Dutch ovens so things aren't in direct contact with the bottom. For pizza and baking Fransis sell a variety of inserts that go in the firebox but I've never used any of these. You could probably bake inside a Dutch, roasting works really well as does any kind of stew or slow cooking, slow cooked spare ribs are to die for, same for slow cook steak, pork and whole chicken. A bigger firebox gives you more options for baking and pizza making, that's why I wish we had bought the S43 like @edmundedgar.

Chuck wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:35 am
Oh, and did I mention my roof is made of straw. :( Now, probably everyone is thinking this stove is a bad idea. I'm thinking the same thing. Well, the outer side of the roof is covered with metal sheeting. I'm sure everyone has seen these kominka. I will try and upload a picture. My stove guy does reassure me they have done these types of roofs and it will be safe. The plan is to use 1 meter of single wall out of stove and than all double insulated top notch made on Japan stove pipe. And where the pipe will be around the straw, this straw will be removed and all the pipe in the attic will be wrapped with non-combustible insulation, so triple insulated. Anyone out there with a similar roof?
Should be safe, most modern wood burning stoves use a downwash airflow so you don't get sparks flying up the chimney. If you've got metal sheeting over the straw then it should be fine but check with your home insurer before going ahead, my father back in the UK couldn't fit a wood stove because his house is thatched and he would have lost his home insurance.
Chuck wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:35 am
edmundedgar, I like that your cat likes your stove. Thanks for sharing about your S43. Do you also use it for cooking?

Good idea about first bargaining with my stove guy and saying I'm thinking of buying overseas. We are also waiting for one more estimate from another company. Hopefully this one will be not so expensive. Our estimate are including stove, chimney and installation. I am also going to say I got another estimate and see if they will match or beat the others offer.
Cats love wood stoves

Image

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe the reason stoves here are so expensive is that they don't sell many so to keep the business afloat they need a fairly high markup on each sale. It's probably not easy running a stove business here.

Stoves naturally dry the air out so having something on top to add water back into your air is a good idea, you can get cast iron kettles with the spouts set high up, low down mounted spouts don't work so well and saucepans full of boiling water are a disaster waiting to happen.
edmundedgar wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:31 pm
No, it doesn't have a hot plate on top, it's designed for the top not to get too hot. For cooking I think you need a different variant, which in our case would have ended up sticking out more and eating too much of our living room space.
@edmundedgar Can't say for sure but your stove is fairly similar in design to ours, if the outside of your stove is getting up to around 200 - 300C then you should be able to cook with it. Our S33 is normally around 200 - 250C according to the little magnetic dial thermometer we have attached on the outside.

We also have one of those peltier fans. What temp is the outside of your stove generally ?

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Post by Tora »

We have a nice little Morso stove that keeps us warm and my wife loves the squirrel A bigger fire box and a pull out ash drawer are two things we don’t have that I wish we did. I went all single walled stovepipe cuz it fit the budget and I can get up on the roof and clean it out really easy. I figured I could upgrade to double walled pipe later on if needed but I have no complaints at this point. I burned mainly construction scraps for the first year and a half while renovating and after moving, and got 1/3 - 1/2? bucket of flaky stuff on the first clean out I did.

Also, if at all possible, I’d take the stove pipe out of a side wall, under an eave. Every good carpenter I know who has or installs stoves here does that cuz Japan gets a LOT of rain and water WILL find a way. And as a person who deals with high temperatures in my work in a hot glass studio, I do not like the idea of a stove pipe in close proximity with thatch, even with insulation around it. I’ve seen the results of fires from pyrolysis a couple times. Tried to prevent it once when I saw the situation. The owner was lucky he caught it when he did. He still had to pay to move the pipe- after having 3-4 fire trucks lightning up the neighborhood l, putting out the fire with his garden hose while the fire fighters stared at the huge gas tank 1 meter away, entertaining the neighbors, and paying to repair the fire damage. Do it right the first time. It’s less painful that way👍

Chuck

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Post by Chuck »

Tora wrote:
Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:31 pm
We have a nice little Morso stove that keeps us warm and my wife loves the squirrel A bigger fire box and a pull out ash drawer are two things we don’t have that I wish we did. I went all single walled stovepipe cuz it fit the budget and I can get up on the roof and clean it out really easy. I figured I could upgrade to double walled pipe later on if needed but I have no complaints at this point. I burned mainly construction scraps for the first year and a half while renovating and after moving, and got 1/3 - 1/2? bucket of flaky stuff on the first clean out I did.

Also, if at all possible, I’d take the stove pipe out of a side wall, under an eave. Every good carpenter I know who has or installs stoves here does that cuz Japan gets a LOT of rain and water WILL find a way. And as a person who deals with high temperatures in my work in a hot glass studio, I do not like the idea of a stove pipe in close proximity with thatch, even with insulation around it. I’ve seen the results of fires from pyrolysis a couple times. Tried to prevent it once when I saw the situation. The owner was lucky he caught it when he did. He still had to pay to move the pipe- after having 3-4 fire trucks lightning up the neighborhood l, putting out the fire with his garden hose while the fire fighters stared at the huge gas tank 1 meter away, entertaining the neighbors, and paying to repair the fire damage. Do it right the first time. It’s less painful that way👍
Tora, thanks for the reply and advice. Wow, glad your neighbor was ok. Scare stuff. I also don't like the idea of going through the roof because of the added risk of future water damage. We our in the process of finding a construction company to do a big renovation. This renovation is going to take place in a different location from where we want the wood burning stove. I got talking to this carpenter about wanting a wood burning stove
and he said like you did, just don't go through the roof! Listening to what you said also makes me think he is a good carpenter too.

I've done the wrong way and had to fix it later too many times before. As I get older, I have decided to do it the right way first more often. I am going to reconsider the location.

Zasso, Thanks for the link to fransis. There were some stoves on that site I hadn't been aware of and lots stove accessories to browse through.

Nice cats, I am going to have to get some cats for my future stove.

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Post by Zasso Nouka »

Chuck wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:59 am
Nice cats, I am going to have to get some cats for my future stove.
Any home is alway improved by having cats and they are going to appreciate a wood stove far more than mere human beings are able to :lol:
Chuck wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:59 am
Zasso, Thanks for the link to fransis. There were some stoves on that site I hadn't been aware of and lots stove accessories to browse through.
Anything you see on Fransis should be available from a more local source and if it's not then you can always order it from them.

Chuck wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:59 am

Tora, thanks for the reply and advice. Wow, glad your neighbor was ok. Scare stuff. I also don't like the idea of going through the roof because of the added risk of future water damage. We our in the process of finding a construction company to do a big renovation. This renovation is going to take place in a different location from where we want the wood burning stove. I got talking to this carpenter about wanting a wood burning stove
and he said like you did, just don't go through the roof! Listening to what you said also makes me think he is a good carpenter too.

I've done the wrong way and had to fix it later too many times before. As I get older, I have decided to do it the right way first more often. I am going to reconsider the location.
Personally I'd suggest it's better to listen to your local craftsmen, they have way more practical experience than some random guy on the internet like myself. Obviously I'm not including someone like @Tora in that statement, he seems to know what he's talking about. Not meaning to sound pompous there or anything but those guys have way more practical experience than I do.

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Post by Tora »

@Chuck,

Making mistakes is the best way to learn. If you actually learn from your mistakes. I’ve reached the point where I know how painful that can be so I try to use common sense and be preemptive in my problem solving.

@Zasso,
I just act like I know what I’m talking about so well that even I believe it sometimes. It’s one thing that keeps me going. Although, I have to say, it sure was easier engaging in difficult and dangerous endeavors when I didn’t have a good sense of what the consequences might be though.

In all honesty, I learn so much here and truly do appreciate it. Thanks to all that make this possible.

Now, I’m trying to find a way to get over to my friend’s place ASAP to tell him he might not want a catalytic element on that big Vermont Castings stove he’s planning to get for his new house.

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Post by Zasso Nouka »

Tora wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:59 pm
Now, I’m trying to find a way to get over to my friend’s place ASAP to tell him he might not want a catalytic element on that big Vermont Castings stove he’s planning to get for his new house.
Their non catalytic stoves are pretty good :thumbup:

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