TESLA/$TSLA

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VanillaEssence
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Post by VanillaEssence »

Taxes are also not necessary for government spending. As a monetary sovereign the US government creates every dollar it spends. When you pay taxes, that money is literally destroyed. The government doesn’t need to wait to receive your tax dollars in order to be able to spend. The opposite is true. Every dollar in the economy is spent into existence by the Fed. The actual function of tax is as an inflation control, and developed countries aren’t even able to hit their inflation targets because inequality and unemployment are so high now.

I’m very much in favour of taxes for the ultra wealthy. This should be done for the purposes of reducing inequality. It is not necessary for the government to be able to provide services. I suspect one of the major reasons Americans are so anti-tax, other than having the greatest amount of neoliberal propaganda for the last 70 years, is that so many government services are of poor quality in the US, so people don’t feel like their getting anything from the government. That in itself is a function of these services being underfunded

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:07 am
I'm not being insulting here but it always amuses me when Americans call the Democrat party left wing or countries that have a national health system Socialist.
No offense taken, I love yah Zasso! Just please don't color me into a box before you hear me out. I've taken a few of those political compass assessments and come out straight down the middle, which totally jives with me not identifying with either party. I'm totally for a National Health System among other societal needs that end up benefitting everyone. I use the word "needs" specifically as making sure everyone has their needs met isn't socialism but the minimum basic framework of having a functional society. On the other hand, I'm from California, affectionately known as "Commiefornia" by many. I've seen billions of dollars go to waste due to corruption, incompetence, and bloated programs that address voters feelings but do not offer meaningful progress on the problems but end up enriching politicians and whoever buys their favor.

Related to this thread, Biden letting the UAW run a train on him for 'merican made EVs and ignoring/excluding Tesla from the white house event is a good example. Of course in his current bill proposal, there is an extra $4,500 for EV's made by US manufacturers using union labor. It's really blatent corruption when you look at UAW contributions to Biden's campaign. I'm all in favor of incentivizing the transition to EVs as the cleaner air alone is better for us all...but it money is excessive. Do we really need a $12,500USD payout for buying an EV when we're at price parity? I'm sure it will only help TSLA up faster but it's not a rational amount of money. Would be better spendt on free charging credits or something like that. The bill overall is just a bit much but it is another example as of what I'm saying....it has it all, corruption, bloat, and includes the pseudo-EVs which are an unreasonable reach for this effort. Until there is more transparency, focus, efficiency, and corruption is further weeded out, the benefits of throwing more and more money at the government aren't what they are promised.

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:07 am
Personally I'm all in favour of taxing the rich to the hilt. Tax them at the normal rate up to the first 10 million say and then anything over that at 90 or 95% and count everything not just income. 10 million a year is enough for anyone to live on comfortably.
I'd say 3-5 million is more than enough for anyone to live comfortably on in perpetuity and anyone on the right side of the bell curve knows the more money you make, the more money your money makes. That being said, who are we to say what one's wealth needs to be utilized for and what would taking someone at 90/95% over that accomplish other than a millionaire/wealth exodus from the country? Since this is a TSLA thread, Musk is a great example. He made 165million from selling Paypal. He used money to create Tesla and SpaceX. If the government had taken say, 145 million of that in taxes, we'd have no Tesla, no SpaceX. While I totally understand the imbalance of wealth "feels" disgusting to many people, a fair assessment of the wealth and how it's being utilized reveals and objectively a win for humanity. Do you think the government could have better utilized that $145 million in way that improves society, humanity, etc.? The answer is a pretty obvious and clear no. Another guy I know is accumulating millions in invested wealth with the intent to promote research into psychedelics for curing mental illness. That all being said, you have other wealth that is not invested and doing nothing for anyone. May they be socially scorned for it and while I do have an issue with inheritance tax on peasants like us, I think an inheritance tax on the ultra-wealthy is reasonable. If they try to avoid it by doling out money each year ahead of their death, that's money back in the market and get's taxed. It works out for society either way.
Last edited by Otona Cream Pie on Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

VanillaEssence wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:35 am
Taxes are also not necessary for government spending. As a monetary sovereign the US government creates every dollar it spends. When you pay taxes, that money is literally destroyed. The government doesn’t need to wait to receive your tax dollars in order to be able to spend. The opposite is true. Every dollar in the economy is spent into existence by the Fed. The actual function of tax is as an inflation control, and developed countries aren’t even able to hit their inflation targets because inequality and unemployment are so high now.
Mostly agree but I see the ineffective, bloated, corrupt spending as the problem.
VanillaEssence wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:35 am
I’m very much in favour of taxes for the ultra wealthy. This should be done for the purposes of reducing inequality. It is not necessary for the government to be able to provide services. I suspect one of the major reasons Americans are so anti-tax, other than having the greatest amount of neoliberal propaganda for the last 70 years, is that so many government services are of poor quality in the US, so people don’t feel like their getting anything from the government. That in itself is a function of these services being underfunded
On one hand many Americans take issue with the government's role in banking (federal reserve) and with being an arbiter of equity as these were not powers granted in the US constitution. On the other hand, I agree with the aversion to taxation from neoliberal propaganda and the ineffective government efforts...though as I say above, I attribute that to poorly thought out plans, wasteful spending, and corruption as the problems. You often hear "underfunded" but when you see how much money was thrown at an effort, it's astronomical but some bizarre % is allocated improperly.

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Zasso Nouka
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Post by Zasso Nouka »

VanillaEssence wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:35 am
I’m very much in favour of taxes for the ultra wealthy. This should be done for the purposes of reducing inequality. It is not necessary for the government to be able to provide services. I suspect one of the major reasons Americans are so anti-tax, other than having the greatest amount of neoliberal propaganda for the last 70 years, is that so many government services are of poor quality in the US, so people don’t feel like their getting anything from the government. That in itself is a function of these services being underfunded
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:11 pm
On one hand many Americans take issue with the government's role in banking (federal reserve) and with being an arbiter of equity as these were not powers granted in the US constitution. On the other hand, I agree with the aversion to taxation from neoliberal propaganda and the ineffective government efforts...though as I say above, I attribute that to poorly thought out plans, wasteful spending, and corruption as the problems. You often hear "underfunded" but when you see how much money was thrown at an effort, it's astronomical but some bizarre % is allocated improperly.
Obviously I have no experience of American government programs but from what I've heard and read on international news this does seem to be a common complaint about wasted tax dollars. Obviously we don't hear about all the well run schemes and it's only the wasteful or corrupt ones that make it into the news headlines. I doubt there are any governments anywhere that are able to really satisfy all of their voters all of the time.
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:55 am
No offense taken, I love yah Zasso! Just please don't color me into a box before you hear me out. I've taken a few of those political compass assessments and come out straight down the middle, which totally jives with me not identifying with either party. I'm totally for a National Health System among other societal needs that end up benefitting everyone. I use the word "needs" specifically as making sure everyone has their needs met isn't socialism but the minimum basic framework of having a functional society. On the other hand, I'm from California, affectionately known as "Commiefornia" by many. I've seen billions of dollars go to waste due to corruption, incompetence, and bloated programs that address voters feelings but do not offer meaningful progress on the problems but end up enriching politicians and whoever buys their favor.
Same here man, same here. You certainly don't come across as a banjo playing hillbilly redneck :lol:

Sadly corruption seems to happen right around the globe and across the political spectrum, whether it's overt syphoning of money into the pockets of politicians or more subtle awarding of contracts to friends or political donors.
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:55 am
Related to this thread, Biden letting the UAW run a train on him for 'merican made EVs and ignoring/excluding Tesla from the white house event is a good example. Of course in his current bill proposal, there is an extra $4,500 for EV's made by US manufacturers using union labor. It's really blatent corruption when you look at UAW contributions to Biden's campaign. I'm all in favor of incentivizing the transition to EVs as the cleaner air alone is better for us all...but it money is excessive. Do we really need a $12,500USD payout for buying an EV when we're at price parity? I'm sure it will only help TSLA up faster but it's not a rational amount of money. Would be better spendt on free charging credits or something like that. The bill overall is just a bit much but it is another example as of what I'm saying....it has it all, corruption, bloat, and includes the pseudo-EVs which are an unreasonable reach for this effort. Until there is more transparency, focus, efficiency, and corruption is further weeded out, the benefits of throwing more and more money at the government aren't what they are promised.
And here we come back to money being funneled to donors again. Sure I think subsidies to encourage take of EV's is a good thing as we got quite a generous one when buying our Leaf. I don't think they should be limited to one company but spread across the board and they certainly shouldn't be available for hybrids or PHEV's, as I've already stated finding a PHEV plugged in at a charging station is something that does irk me. Due to the tiny battery they have their charging rate is throttled way down but they sit there for the whole half hour.

Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:55 am
I'd say 3-5 million is more than enough for anyone to live comfortably on in perpetuity and anyone on the right side of the bell curve knows the more money you make, the more money your money makes. That being said, who are we to say what one's wealth needs to be utilized for and what would taking someone at 90/95% over that accomplish other than a millionaire/wealth exodus from the country? Since this is a TSLA thread, Musk is a great example. He made 165million from selling Paypal. He used money to create Tesla and SpaceX. If the government had taken say, 145 million of that in taxes, we'd have no Tesla, no SpaceX. While I totally understand the imbalance of wealth "feels" disgusting to many people, a fair assessment of the wealth and how it's being utilized reveals and objectively a win for humanity. Do you think the government could have better utilized that $145 million in way that improves society, humanity, etc.? The answer is a pretty obvious and clear no. Another guy I know is accumulating millions in invested wealth with the intent to promote research into psychedelics for curing mental illness. That all being said, you have other wealth that is not invested and doing nothing for anyone. May they be socially scorned for it and while I do have an issue with inheritance tax on peasants like us, I think an inheritance tax on the ultra-wealthy is reasonable. If they try to avoid it by doling out money each year ahead of their death, that's money back in the market and get's taxed. It works out for society either way.
That's a fair point and I'm not sure what the answer is, perhaps some special exception for when windfall earnings are going to be used to start a new venture ? That would allow for things like Tesla, SpaceX, etc.

Inheritance tax really should have the limit raised for us ordinary folks but applied more strictly and heavily to the ultra wealthy. Fair enough pass on a couple of million to your kids, if they are financially prudent that should last them their entire lifetime without ever having to work but anything over that should be taxed to the hilt.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

We all seem to have the same general ideas on what will make the world better, it's figuring out the most efficient and fair way to make those things happen. Not too happy with the political tribalism going on where you have two people basically often have the same goal but one is too prideful to take a rational approach because of their political gang affiliation.

Back to TSLA:
Sure I think subsidies to encourage take of EV's is a good thing as we got quite a generous one when buying our Leaf. I don't think they should be limited to one company
They're not limited to any company but Tesla is going to benefit the most from them based on the simple fact they have the largest manufacturing capacity. The put in the money and hard work over the last decade to get there so it's not exactly surprising or unearned.

Sandy from good ol Detroit calling it like he sees it:



***If you think he sounds biased, this is a guy who ripped Tesla for build quality (his company tears down vehicles and sells reports on the engineering of the vehicles) and had Musk admit his criticisms were valid and warranted. Of course the quality has been since addressed and should be surpassing industry levels with the new megacastings, new paint, etc etc.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

On that tax the filthy rich and that money not being used as described note, this is pretty relevant....
Billionaires need to "step up now, on a one-time basis", said David Beasley in an interview on CNN's Connect the World with Becky Anderson that aired Tuesday -- citing specifically the world's two richest men, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk.
"$6 billion to help 42 million people that are literally going to die if we don't reach them. It's not complicated," he added.
Musk responded:
If WFP can describe on this Twitter thread exactly how $6B will solve world hunger, I will sell Tesla stock right now and do it. But it must be open source accounting, so the public sees precisely how the money is spent.”
Which elicited this reply:
We’ve never said $6B [billion] would solve world hunger. This is a one-time donation to save 42 million lives during this unprecedented hunger crisis. The $8.4B you refer to covers what we needed to reach 115 million people in 2020 with food assistance. We need $6B plus NOW on top of our existing funding requirements due to the perfect storm from the compounding impact of Covid, conflict and climate shocks.
...and seems to have ended with:
Please publish your current & proposed spending in detail so people can see exactly where money goes.
Most decent human beings can get behind the idea of helping out mankind but when the effort's PR strategy is alarmist/shame, lacks transparency, performance, etc. and is plagued by scandals...the skepticism and pushback is warranted. People rage on against CEO's getting paid the big bucks for performance while toiling workers wages are only a fraction of the pay increases...so why do these humanitarian efforts get a "but it's for a good cause" pass when they enrich themselves on money donated? They are basically taking a ridiculous toll on the donations purpose. Then there's the question of solving the problems rather than just band aiding the problem today by feeding people and not addressing why they are going hungry in the first place. I'm not saying that these efforts are not needed but again, there has got to be a more transparent and efficient way to tackle problems that doesn't involve unnecessary bloat and corruption.

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Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:43 pm
They're not limited to any company but Tesla is going to benefit the most from them based on the simple fact they have the largest manufacturing capacity. The put in the money and hard work over the last decade to get there so it's not exactly surprising or unearned.
The other car companies could have got onboard with EV's right at the beginning and benefited like Tesla did but they chose not too so have now been left behind. That was their choice and now they are playing catch up, no doubt government will bail them out if they start to fail, certainly their lobbyists will try to make that happen.

I must confess to having mixed feelings about Jeff Bezos, on the one hand he came from a relatively normal background and built a business from nothing that is now hugely valuable. But on the other hand Amazon devastated small independent bookshops and now threatens other businesses yet at the same time I do buy stuff from them that I just can't find locally.

I think Bill Gates gets a lot of stick unfairly. Being a Linux user I certainly have no love for Micro$oft or Windoze but the charity work he gets on with is pretty remarkable and giving us all the opportunity to be implanted with 5G chips so we can get a clear mobile signal wherever we go was genius.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:27 am
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:43 pm
They're not limited to any company but Tesla is going to benefit the most from them based on the simple fact they have the largest manufacturing capacity. The put in the money and hard work over the last decade to get there so it's not exactly surprising or unearned.
The other car companies could have got onboard with EV's right at the beginning and benefited like Tesla did but they chose not too so have now been left behind. That was their choice and now they are playing catch up, no doubt government will bail them out if they start to fail, certainly their lobbyists will try to make that happen.
The overarching theme I see with legacy manufacturers is they felt it was a fully matured market and changed the focus/money from innovation to cost-cutting and marketing. They basically set themselves up for disruption by taking their foot of the accelerator to coast their way into the future.

This is a great illustration of where their heads are at:

Image

Many of Tesla's massive advantages are developments that were available to others but were passed up on as it was seen as unnecessary, risky, etc. I really like the comment Sandy Munro made about Tesla's metal and how they have their own proprietary metal. "Who else does this? Detroit disbanded their materials science division decades ago!"

No doubt the media (Legacy auto is their largest source of sponsorship), lobbyists, and luddites will try to keep legacy auto alive but it's like bailing water from the Titanic. That ship is sinking.
Zasso Nouka wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:27 am
I must confess to having mixed feelings about Jeff Bezos, on the one hand he came from a relatively normal background and built a business from nothing that is now hugely valuable. But on the other hand Amazon devastated small independent bookshops and now threatens other businesses yet at the same time I do buy stuff from them that I just can't find locally.
The way I saw it was small, independent book shops survived and the large retailers collapsed. Regardless, the bigger picture is we now have access to more books ever, at the lowest prices ever, at tap of our finger....and the power of that availability to humanity is incomprehensible at the moment. On the other hand, I have been using audio books more and more...mostly educational and historical....if it wasn't Amazon, audible or other such apps would have brought about this revolution. I think the age of the small local shops that can't provide some sort of value added to the buying experience is over. (Cafe, book signings, I dunno...but it's time to get creative) I wouldn't blame Bezos for all this, he just set up the toll road to the future and started directing traffic. Of course his attempts to bribe/sue his way in to government space contracts are a really fucked use of his power, especially when he was previously complaining about this exact inhibition to progress.
Zasso Nouka wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:27 am
I think Bill Gates gets a lot of stick unfairly. Being a Linux user I certainly have no love for Micro$oft or Windoze but the charity work he gets on with is pretty remarkable and giving us all the opportunity to be implanted with 5G chips so we can get a clear mobile signal wherever we go was genius.
Not sure I agree with all his efforts but yeah, he's not sitting on his fortune. No doubt many good things will come from them and once again, without the bureaucracy, I'm sure the money is being used more effectively.

TSLA $1219 after hours..."The perfect storm....again"
https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/tsla

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Zasso Nouka
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Post by Zasso Nouka »

Hope you don't mind if I reply later, got to get back to log splitting this afternoon.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:50 pm
Hope you don't mind if I reply later, got to get back to log splitting this afternoon.
Not sure if you were in the garden, the restroom, or the bedroom but otsukare for the hard work ;)

I'm a bit distracted....I've been drooling over this cheesy 90's home on one of the Akiya-banks all day. Just far enough in the woods that the asking price of 350man is a insanely low....but for someone that enjoys driving, a potential way to stop paying rent and have more room (and fresh air)