TESLA/$TSLA

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Zasso Nouka
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Post by Zasso Nouka »

Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:03 am
Not sure if you were in the garden, the restroom, or the bedroom but otsukare for the hard work ;)
Luckily it was outside, every year we are late stacking up the firewood and it's a mad panic to get the wood store filled in time. At least so far haven't had to fire the stove up yet but am slowly getting a nice store of dry wood built up.
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:03 am
I'm a bit distracted....I've been drooling over this cheesy 90's home on one of the Akiya-banks all day. Just far enough in the woods that the asking price of 350man is a insanely low....but for someone that enjoys driving, a potential way to stop paying rent and have more room (and fresh air)
Sounds pretty nice and having plenty of space and fresh air around you is always going to be good.

The way I see it and I'm certainly no expert is that Tesla is so far ahead of the other American car companies that they probably can't catch up. Maybe some of the European and Asian car companies will start taking increasing slices of the American car market.

I do feel it's a real shame that Nissan squandered their early efforts, they got off to a great start with the Leaf and then did nothing with it whereas they could have used that knowledge and rolled out an impressive line up of electric cars.

Getting back to Amazon, where I grew up there were two small independent bookshops and the owners of both of them tried really hard to find books their customers would enjoy. They knew the tastes of their customers and would make very good recommendations for future reads. Both bookshops introduced me to new authours and books countless times and I rarely had a book bought from them I didn't enjoy. It's sad to see that snuffed out by Amazon

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:26 am
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:03 am
Not sure if you were in the garden, the restroom, or the bedroom but otsukare for the hard work ;)
Luckily it was outside, every year we are late stacking up the firewood and it's a mad panic to get the wood store filled in time. At least so far haven't had to fire the stove up yet but am slowly getting a nice store of dry wood built up.
Nice, you doing it by axe or have one of those hydraulic machines?
Zasso Nouka wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:26 am
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:03 am
I'm a bit distracted....I've been drooling over this cheesy 90's home on one of the Akiya-banks all day. Just far enough in the woods that the asking price of 350man is a insanely low....but for someone that enjoys driving, a potential way to stop paying rent and have more room (and fresh air)
Sounds pretty nice and having plenty of space and fresh air around you is always going to be good.
It solves the "permanence" problem too, won't feel bad if I move in the near future as depreciation on something that cheap can't be too unreasonable. I don't mind the extra driving if it's as decent as I think it is...
Zasso Nouka wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:26 am
The way I see it and I'm certainly no expert is that Tesla is so far ahead of the other American car companies that they probably can't catch up. Maybe some of the European and Asian car companies will start taking increasing slices of the American car market.

I do feel it's a real shame that Nissan squandered their early efforts, they got off to a great start with the Leaf and then did nothing with it whereas they could have used that knowledge and rolled out an impressive line up of electric cars.
I'm unsure how serious Nissan really was. GM sure wasn't and was just putting out compliance vehicles to avoid buying ZEV credits or being fined. Friend of mine still thinks Toyota has enough experience with hybrids that they can flip a switch and go full elec with their existing tech. I think otherwise but the elephant in the room is everyone will be constrained by battery supply...and I wonder if GM has learned their lesson with pouch batteries?? VW head has his head in the right place but sounds like they're trying to oust him for it....again. Just like Ghosn, going to be corporate suicide for the company. I think the only real competition to TESLA will be from China but besides the usual issues with quality, reliability, and responsibility....I imagine IP theft and other such assery will not be tolerated. I worry for Tesla in this regard as the shunning of CCP-mobiles may garner some tit for tat attacks on Tesla but who knows, the whole real estate debacle is collapsing a lot of wealth and power there. At the end of the day, not so sure there will be mainstream acceptance of Chinese vehicles.
Zasso Nouka wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:26 am
Getting back to Amazon, where I grew up there were two small independent bookshops and the owners of both of them tried really hard to find books their customers would enjoy. They knew the tastes of their customers and would make very good recommendations for future reads. Both bookshops introduced me to new authours and books countless times and I rarely had a book bought from them I didn't enjoy. It's sad to see that snuffed out by Amazon
That is sad, if I were in their shoes, I'd definitely add a cafe and promote their strengths...maybe organize book clubs or something. Like legacy auto, can't stand still, need to get creative and focus on niches and strengths.

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Post by Zasso Nouka »

Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:44 pm
Nice, you doing it by axe or have one of those hydraulic machines?
We have an engine powered log splitter, probably if I used our splitting maul then I'd be in a lot better shape than now :cry: But it would take a lot longer to split a whole winter's worth of wood so it's not all bad.
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:44 pm
It solves the "permanence" problem too, won't feel bad if I move in the near future as depreciation on something that cheap can't be too unreasonable. I don't mind the extra driving if it's as decent as I think it is...
The price certainly seems like a steal, let us know how you get on :thumbup:
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:44 pm
I'm unsure how serious Nissan really was. GM sure wasn't and was just putting out compliance vehicles to avoid buying ZEV credits or being fined. Friend of mine still thinks Toyota has enough experience with hybrids that they can flip a switch and go full elec with their existing tech. I think otherwise but the elephant in the room is everyone will be constrained by battery supply...and I wonder if GM has learned their lesson with pouch batteries?? VW head has his head in the right place but sounds like they're trying to oust him for it....again. Just like Ghosn, going to be corporate suicide for the company. I think the only real competition to TESLA will be from China but besides the usual issues with quality, reliability, and responsibility....I imagine IP theft and other such assery will not be tolerated. I worry for Tesla in this regard as the shunning of CCP-mobiles may garner some tit for tat attacks on Tesla but who knows, the whole real estate debacle is collapsing a lot of wealth and power there. At the end of the day, not so sure there will be mainstream acceptance of Chinese vehicles.
Likewise, Nissan seemed fairly committed to EV's but it's hard to say how much of that was Carlos Ghosn and how much of it was corporate policy. Personally I think companies like Toyota are too focused on hydrogen to take BEV's seriously and as already discussed hydrogen is most likely a dead end for consumer level cars. China seems to be embracing EV's in a big way, it will contribute greatly to clearing their air and also free them from expensive gasoline imports but other countries don't seem to have grasped this. Probably companies like Renault, Hyundai and Kia will be well placed to take a big slice of the EV market.
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:44 pm
That is sad, if I were in their shoes, I'd definitely add a cafe and promote their strengths...maybe organize book clubs or something. Like legacy auto, can't stand still, need to get creative and focus on niches and strengths.
Haven't been back to the old neighbourhood in a very long time but that's probably the only way small stores like that could survive. Still it was a shame to see places like that close down.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

So remember that discussion about taxing unrealized capital gains? Musk is currently selling 10% of his TSLA shares...I think he'll probably have the world's largest tax bill in history. My guess is he wants that record...I think at a 57% tax-rate or something like that...because the extreme left keep going after him, claiming he's not paying his fair share, while ignoring his contributions to humanity. On the other hand, the stock is down in the hundreds of billions, which isn't good for anyone...which may be his point, the tax man will eventually get paid but forcing those payments before the stock is sold is a worse outcome for everyone....even if it appeases those focused on the "image" that he's paying taxes like us all. As I said before, at some point those shares would need to be sold or taxed when transferred as inheritance. As Musk says, "Bernie is a taker, not a maker." Will be interesting to see what happens if Musk demands to know how his tax revenue was spent...

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Post by Zasso Nouka »

I do appreciate what Elon Musk has done but like so many really rich people he uses all sorts of tax dodges to avoid paying tax in the first place, the main one being not taking a salary but taking share options and other things that are not available to us ordinary people. I don't mind people having share options at all but when it's abused so that high flying executives don't have to pay tax on their income that shouldn't be allowed, that one law for us ordinary folk and a completely different arrangement for super rich people. People like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos should take earnings as a salary that can be taxed just like you and me, they can still have share options but that shouldn't be their main source of income.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:24 am
I do appreciate what Elon Musk has done but like so many really rich people he uses all sorts of tax dodges to avoid paying tax in the first place, the main one being not taking a salary but taking share options and other things that are not available to us ordinary people. I don't mind people having share options at all but when it's abused so that high flying executives don't have to pay tax on their income that shouldn't be allowed, that one law for us ordinary folk and a completely different arrangement for super rich people. People like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos should take earnings as a salary that can be taxed just like you and me, they can still have share options but that shouldn't be their main source of income.
Zasso - Despite what the "Tax za rich!!" far left is saying, he's not dodging/avoiding taxes. (Right now, he's actually maximizing what he owes in a show of force) Either the accusers are totally ignorant of how this works, or they are knowingly taking advantage of the majority of the people that are....and it being easy to point a finger at him. In reality, he's paid loads of taxes before, and will have to do so now and in the future.

Two points:

The options he gets, those get taxed as regular income when he exercises them. Just like our regular pay.....and yes, they do need to be exercised within a few years or they will be lost. Hence, he's paying some insane level (well over half) of income tax on it, much much more than anyone else has in history. To be crystal clear, they are NOT taxed as Capital gains since they are not investments.

The "ordinary people" that work at Tesla all get stock options. Tesla has made millionaires out of many of their employees. The UAW and other pro union (ahem GM) are trying to say their union employees are better off. Unfortunately for them, Tesla employees are paid better and have better benefits, with no union.

If my explanation sucks, here is someone much much better than me:



As to gaming the system, there is a way to but it's not only for the super rich. What anyone, including myself, should and can do is build up wealth in the form of investments. In my case, it's mostly TSLA stock. After you reach a certain point, you can take out low interest loans using your investments. Meaning, if you have long term investments, you hold on to them and avoid paying capital gains taxes as long as you don't sell. Assuming they increase over time, it should cover the low interest on your loans and you can live a comfortable life tax/worry free UNTIL you need to sell (it get's taxed at this point), or you pass away and the inheritance is taxed as it passes to whoever. Basically, you don't avoid paying taxes, you are just able to defer it but even then, it's not indefinite. The taxes will eventually be paid on all the gains.

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Post by Zasso Nouka »

Oh please, stop keep calling them the "Far Left", from my own political point of view they look like right wing reactionaries :lol:

Elon Musk paid less than $70,000 in federal income taxes between 2015 and 2017, and he did not pay anything in 2018 and he lives off of loans from his stock options. Yes that is legal but it means he can avoid paying income tax and makes himself a target, he's not the only one doing it but he does seem to attract a lot of attention.

I certainly don't begrudge him his wealth, like Jeff Bezos he made some brilliant decisions and innovations throughout his career to arrive where he is today and I hope they both continue to innovate. All I'd really like to see is them pay themselves a salary and pay the appropriate amount of income tax on that, they can keep all their stock options and other benefits. It's not like that would pauperise them, they'd both still be fantastically wealthy. Both of them could easily afford to pay themselves a salary of say 5 - 10 million dollars with the appropriate income tax payments and it would be like a drop in the ocean to them.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:52 am
Oh please, stop keep calling them the "Far Left", from my own political point of view they look like right wing reactionaries :lol:
I'm pretty straight down the middle on the political compass and those "calling him out" are pretty far left from where I stand. I don't think they are classically liberal and we have these figures framing these claims in a pretty dishonest way to fit the narrative that "he doesn't pay his fair share." I'm not in disagreement that he should be paying taxes, the disconnect is the objective facts are that he is paying taxes, and it's more than fair....he's paying more than anyone else in history.
Zasso Nouka wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:52 am
Elon Musk paid less than $70,000 in federal income taxes between 2015 and 2017, and he did not pay anything in 2018 and he lives off of loans from his stock options. Yes that is legal but it means he can avoid paying income tax and makes himself a target, he's not the only one doing it but he does seem to attract a lot of attention.
Zasso, I think you're getting lost in the details and misinformation being pushed by the media. I'm no expert either, waited embarrassingly too long to learn this stuff myself. That being said, I know you're a rational and intelligent guy so hear me out.

What Elon already owns:

Yes, he can access loans against gains in his stock holdings to live off of without selling shares. It's like being able to spend the money tied up in your investments without losing your investments. That's something we can all do and many do. You don't need to be a billionaire or even an millionaire to do it. It feels unfair/unattainable to those without investments but even Joe Shmoe working at McDonalds can become wealthy with investing and do the same. (this is why I believe financial education needs to be prioritized in schools) To be clear, these are shares he paid for with the original money he invested or already earned...meaning it was already taxed once and the subsequent gains will be taxed again when he sells or transfers the shares to a child or whatever. How long it can be held depends on the type of investments but it will eventually be taxed again. Death and taxes, right?

What Elon is being paid:

Musk's options-based compensation packages differ in that these are taxed as regular income when they are exercised and he has to exercise them by predefined dates. A big deadline is coming up next year. The next one after that is 2028. Again, this is taxed as income, not long term capital gains as it is compensation, not investment income. Whatever he has left over after taxation (less than half) gets moved to what he owns.

You are saying he "avoids paying income tax" but where is this avoidance? I don't know the exact details but let's assume you're right in that he only paid $70K between 2015 and 2017. Sounds unfair on the surface but it's taking a specific portion in time to frame him as not paying his fair share. The options he has earned during that time will eventually come due and the taxes are paid then. To be really simplistic, it's like being paid once every 5-10 years rather than annually...so you would expect his taxes to be crazy only in the years he is paid and not much on the years between. There is no avoiding income taxes on income. He has one options package that needs to be exercised by next year and he's done that now, setting himself up to pay the highest tax bill ever. Musk pays the same type of income tax as all of us but at the highest rates and with a bunch of additional taxes on top. There is simply no avoidance.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Pretty eye opening interview with a former Tesla employee....the company culture is literally the polar opposite than Japan ;) Imagine asking to speak to the CEO of almost any larger company here :lol:



He also mentions Elon's wealth. Dude spends it on more innovation, it gets used for the benefit of humanity....not on unnecessary luxury bullshit for himself. He might have a twitter ego but he lives humbly and works insanely long hours. His is a unique case but that wealth is probably used 1,000X more effectively in his hands than any government.

Meanwhile in J-land, Toyoda-san has used the appropriately named JAMA to form "TEAM JAPAN" in an effort to try to keep the combustion engine alive. They should try to keep the fax machine alive while they're at it :doh:

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Post by Zasso Nouka »

I hear what you are saying and yes he isn't doing anything illegal and he does pay all taxes due but the way he does that is by not having an income but taking out loans on investments which is something most normal folk can't do and that's what makes him and others a target.

A simple solution would be start taking a salary, pay the tax on that and then the problem goes away. He can keep all the other stock options and whatever.