TESLA/$TSLA

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Otona Cream Pie
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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:09 am
I hear what you are saying and yes he isn't doing anything illegal and he does pay all taxes due but the way he does that is by not having an income but taking out loans on investments which is something most normal folk can't do and that's what makes him and others a target.
Zasso, I think you're almost on the same page but please reread what I posted above as what you are proposing are two separate issues.

1.) The loans are against wealth he already has. This is something any normal person can do. It's the same as taking out a loan against your home and living off of it. Eventually, it needs to be paid back and it is not free. With stocks, the effect is access to $$ before paying capital gains taxes on the wealth since the shares are not actually sold....but eventually they will be sold or transferred and they will be taxed to hell when they do. In a best case scenario, his companies continue to grow for the foreseeable future and he dies without selling his shares. At that point, say his will says he donates some to charity, some to his surviving family, etc. 100% of that is taxed. That is a very good year for the IRS. Now, you may feel it's unfair to delay paying taxes on that accumulated wealth until death but it's stocks...stocks go up, and they go down, but you're still left with a point in time where the tax will be collected. Unless the secret to eternal life is discovered, when wealthy people pass on, the government will always benefit from thee massive transfers of wealth. (I realize another argument is some unscrupulous individuals attempt to hide wealth overseas and through series of shell companies but that is not happening here)

2.) He does have an income (stock options) and it's taxed just like everyone else's, he just gets that income in X-years rather than monthly like us. In the end, he still pays all the taxes on that income when the options are exercised.
Zasso Nouka wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 5:09 am
A simple solution would be start taking a salary, pay the tax on that and then the problem goes away. He can keep all the other stock options and whatever.
He's legally required to get paid a minimum wage so technically, there is a salary. The only real difference is the false perception being portrayed in the media that he's escaping paying taxes because he is paid in stock options. We've already shown that to be false so the obvious question is what you proposed, why not just take an X-millions of dollars annual salary like a "normal" CEO?

The answer is quite simple. He only gets paid if the company is doing extremely well. How many CEO's would risk a guaranteed X-million dollar salary for the actual performance of the company? Probably none except Elon. If the company doesn't perform, not only does he not get paid, his shares of the company suffer in return. He actually loses wealth. So it's a massive show of solidarity and faith in the company. Think about how many times we've heard of this or that company going bankrupt, cutting workers, wages, benefits, all while the CEO gets a bonus. That won't happen at Tesla, his compensation suffers along side the employees and there is no guarantee he will ever earn his next stock option package.

If you watch that video I posted, the employees are rewarded the same way, it creates an incentive for true teamwork and freedom for creativity rather than a hierarchy of things to slow progress. The result is the fastest rate of progress in any company ever. Right now cars are in the spotlight but Tesla is going to take over industry after industry.

Lastly, what is the point of Musk accumulating such an incomprehensible amount of wealth? If it was me, I'd build a high tech, self sustaining cruise ship with a revolving door of sluts being flown in, maybe an on board ice arena....but this is Musk, he isn't selfish like me....he is brining internet access to anywhere on earth, the moon, and Mars. He is going to put permanent settlements of humans on the moon and on Mars. He's funding carbon removal efforts to clean up the Earth's atmosphere. I don't think most people comprehend how profound these accomplishments will be for humanity.

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Otona Cream Pie
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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

:think:
I guess when you speak of him, he shows up...


Sen. Bernie Sanders: "It is not acceptable that the two wealthiest people in this country, Mr. Musk and Mr. Bezos, take control of our space efforts to return to the Moon, [...]This is not something for two billionaires to be directing."
Bernie is leaning in to luddite and going full authoritarian. Assuming he's speaking from a place of competency, this is simply another bizarre, irrational and emotional outburst based on "image" while willfully ignoring the reality of the situation. Can't speak for Bezos/Blue Origin but SpaceX reusable rockets have cut costs down to a level where NASA can do 10X the work with the same money. That came about because when the government rained money down on previous contractors, they developed a sense of complacency and a lack of progress. The only thing billionaires have to do with this is they risked their money for progress and innovation. For some reason Bernie always has something negative to say about successes that the government can't take credit for...like that time a billionaire paid for everyone's student loans at a graduation ceremony. Comes across like CCP think...the government should control and credit for errryting!

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Post by gonbechan »

Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:50 pm
If it was me, I'd build a high tech, self sustaining cruise ship with a revolving door of sluts being flown in, maybe an on board ice arena....
If your dick is of any normal proportion, I would be careful if I were you, it would get caught in the revolving door and possibly be snapped off.
:roll:

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

gonbechan wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 1:03 pm
Otona Cream Pie wrote:
Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:50 pm
If it was me, I'd build a high tech, self sustaining cruise ship with a revolving door of sluts being flown in, maybe an on board ice arena....
If your dick is of any normal proportion, I would be careful if I were you, it would get caught in the revolving door and possibly be snapped off.
:roll:
...or bit off :shock:

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Good response to the Bernie mess...


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Post by Zasso Nouka »

I haven't had time to watch all the videos, november and december are very busy times of the year for us but my main contention still stands. Elon Musk could easily make much of this go away by paying himself a salary that incurred income tax, it would be a drop in the ocean for him and next time someone says he isn't paying income tax he could reply au contraire. However I suspect he doesn't really care what politicians are saying about him and probably enjoys arguing with them on twitter.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:15 am
I haven't had time to watch all the videos, november and december are very busy times of the year for us but my main contention still stands. Elon Musk could easily make much of this go away by paying himself a salary that incurred income tax, it would be a drop in the ocean for him and next time someone says he isn't paying income tax he could reply au contraire. However I suspect he doesn't really care what politicians are saying about him and probably enjoys arguing with them on twitter.
Zasso, let me try to condense the situation into a simple example. Let's say Musk earns a 5 billion dollar stock options bonus that needs to be exercised in 5 years time. Income tax rate of 50%.

Year 1: almost no taxes
Year 2: almost no taxes
Year 3: almost no taxes
Year 4: almost no taxes
Year 5: 2.5 billion in taxes

Result? Musk pockets 2.5 billion, pays 2.5billion in taxes

Now let's say he is paid a salary of 1 billion a year over a 5 year period.

Year 1: 0.5billion in taxes
Year 2: 0.5billion in taxes
Year 3: 0.5billion in taxes
Year 4: 0.5billion in taxes
Year 5: 0.5billion in taxes

Result? Musk pockets 2.5 billion, pays 2.5billion in taxes

As far as taxes go, the results are basically the same. It's all taxed as income and at the same rate, the options are NOT given lower long term capital gains tax rates because they are earned income. The only difference is for Years 1~4 in the Stock options scenario, Bernie is on Musk about "not paying any taxes during this time." Imagine paying over half of what you earn to taxation, then being called out in the media as some sort of tax cheat and not paying enough. The only reason this gets any traction is most people don't understand how this works and how it's taxed. It's more like being called out for not paying taxes in 2025....the argument makes no sense as there is no 2025 income yet and 2025 taxes are not due yet. Would it be fair to go on the news and call you out by name and try to shame you for your "failure to pay taxes in 2025?" Not at all, but that's basically what Bernie is doing and I have a hard time believing he's ignorant of how this works.

Statements like that are the political equivalent of clickbait. You could say "Japan admits not a single Tibetan citizen into the country for 2020!!" The suggestion there is Japan has some sort of bias against Tibetans but the more likely reason for the situation would be Covid-19 and travel restrictions that have no bias. The amount of foreign nationals entering Japan are down across the board. In other words, a framing of specific facts to evoke outrage by dishonestly portraying some sensational narrative that objectively doesn't exist when you have the full context of the situation.

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Post by Zasso Nouka »

Might I suggest you have a read of this article at ProPublica, it's shows that through various means the ultra wealthy pay substantially less tax on their total wealth than ordinary folk do.

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Post by Otona Cream Pie »

Zasso Nouka wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:27 pm
Might I suggest you have a read of this article at ProPublica, it's shows that through various means the ultra wealthy pay substantially less tax on their total wealth than ordinary folk do.
Zasso, that article is on about doing what any one of us is capable of doing but framing it as out of reach. The idea is you amass appreciating wealth in assets like stocks or properties until you reach a point where the gains on that are more than your living expenses + interest and then you take out a loan against your wealth. You still pay taxes on income and whatnot but you can defer paying taxes on the unrealized capital gains.
Those gains are not defined by U.S. laws as taxable income unless and until the billionaires sell.
Missing the word "unrealized" and it matters. Like my example above, this article also misses the reality that at some point, that wealth will be sold or transferred and therefore taxed at that point. Best case scenario for the owner is person dies paying a pittance on income and without paying much tax on their wealth during their life....but then the untaxed wealth gets taxed as inheritance. (40% or more in the US) So yeah, you can defer the taxes on unrealized capital gains within your own life, it's not illegal but it doesn't avoid taxation.

It may "feel" unfair that people put themselves in the position to defer taxation but they lose the liquidity of their full wealth, it's at risk as long as it's invested (market crash, housing crash, etc,), those investments are what keep the market moving, and at the end of the day, the taxman eventually gets the job done. If we took away that aspect, the same person might keep it as cash in a bank or under a mattress. This won't be taxed either but also serves no benefit to society. Whether it's in a house or a stock, investment is needed to make progress. The lesson here is the need to take a lifetime view of the taxation rather than a few years to see what people actually end up paying in taxes. (When Buffet, Bezos, et al sell off or die, the taxman is gonna be rolling in $$$) The only way to truly avoid paying taxes is illegal offshore assery and that's why it's illegal. Of course we should all support reasonable efforts to prevent that type of illegal activity.

Again, I'll point out the reason why unrealized capital gains are not taxed is the "unrealized" part. That applies to all of us. If you bought a 10,000JPY home and the city came out and assessed it's value as 1,000,000JPY, you have an unrealized capital gain of 990,000JPY. If you sold the home for that, it's realized and you pay taxes on the gain...but if you don't sell the home, it's not fair to tax you on that "theoretical" sales price because you haven't sold it and profited, we can't guarantee it really would sell for any specific price....and the value of the home isn't static so if the value suddenly drops to 1yen, you'd be in the red not just from the value of the home but from that taxation you paid at a value it's not longer worth. This is why these kinds of assets are taxed at sale or transfer when you have a specific point in time and valuation to tax.

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Post by Zasso Nouka »

I guess this is one of those things we'll have to agree to disagree on and that's fine friends don't have to have exactly the same thoughts on everything. I would prefer if multi billionaires paid more taxes in the way ordinary folk do and you are fine with the situation as it is.