How to make persimmon vinegar

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Zasso Nouka
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Re: How to make persimmon vinegar

Post by Zasso Nouka »

A huge thank you for posting Gaijinfarmer,

I'm still trying to source bitter kaki but most folk around here seem to grow the eating ones, the kaki on our rented hatake are ripening nicely so maybe I could try it with those ?

It really does sound like you make quite a quantity, do you test for specific gravity or anything during the process or do you rely on intuition to know when the process has complete ? I don't have any bamboo implements but we do have a lot of bamboo growing in our forest so maybe able to fashion something from there. Do you sell the vinegar you make ?

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Re: How to make persimmon vinegar

Post by Zasso Nouka »

If it works then there's no real reason to be testing and measuring, why complicate a simple process ? I had wondered if it was necessary or whether it was one of those things that just happens and you know when it's ready from experience, good to know it's the later as I like simple things.

Thank you for the info on kaki, still trying to locate so shibugaki, there must be someone around here that grows them.

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Re: How to make persimmon vinegar

Post by paradoxbox »

As a winemaker I found this quite interesting :) We have hundreds of kaki trees around here so I think I'll give this a go.

If you want to ensure there is no spoilage just use campden tablets (Sulphates) in your batches - it will stop bad yeast and bad bacteria from interfering with the ferment. But do try this in a test batch first as there is a chance that the sulphates could kill the bacteria/organisms that are making your vinegar.

The vinegar / acetic acid is actually created by acetic acid bacteria, not the white stuff on the kaki (which is natural yeast, like on grapes and apples and stuff) but that yeast does play an important part in the fermentation, it creates a lot of flavor before the acetic acid takes over the ferment.


I am a pretty ghetto winemaker doing my ferments in 1.5L pet bottles, where are you getting your large tanks from and how much do they cost?

I have looked into getting those IBC 1000L containers but they're always used, you never know what's been inside of them, I don't want to be putting my drinking water or my wine inside an IBC that used to hold diesel fuel or formaldehyde or something!

If you are looking for reliability in flavor, just keep a bunch of the settled yeast from the bottom of your favorite batch, and take a scoop of the acetic "mother" that pools on the top of the vinegar, and put it into your next batch of fresh kaki mush/water. It will take on the same flavor as the last one.
The reason your results are varying now is because the actual strains of bacteria and yeast doing the fermentation are changing every time you do your ferments. If you introduce the yeast and bacteria from a delicious vinegar/wine, and then cover the bucket / container with a balloon with a hole poked in it, or with a proper water airlock, you'll get the same product every time :)

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Re: How to make persimmon vinegar

Post by Makichan »

Hello Gaijinfarmer,

I think I might have missed the chance to try having a go this year but maybe next as one of my aunts has a few shibugaki trees and she said she will let me have as many as I like. I don't think I will be making as much as you do but it would be lovely to have enough vinegar to use through the year. Do you use it in the same way as ordinary vinegar ?

Thank you for posting

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Re: How to make persimmon vinegar

Post by paradoxbox »

gaijinfarmer wrote:paradoxbox, awesome information, thanks.

Since alcohol and vinegar production both happen on natural timetables, does that mean that they are happening concurrently? Sugar->alcohol and alcohol->vinegar at the same time? Just checking.

I think the big difference when I did the huge batch was that not all the persimmons were totally ripe, so overall sugar content was lowered. This would explain why there was some bitterness left when the vinegar was finished I think.
Hey there.

Well, yes and no. I guess you could say alcohol is being produced by the yeast and at the same time the acetic acid bacteria that land in the bucket feed on the ethanol which produces the acetic acid/vinegar. So while I suppose it can happen concurrently, I think generally what happens is that first the sugars and starches in the kaki are converted to alcohol by the yeast, and then the acetic acid bacteria takes over and converts all of the alcohol into acetic acid.

This is one point where I had probably better research more, but it might be worth waiting for your primary ferment (of the kaki wine) to finish and THEN add the scoop of "mother of vinegar" to the wine, that would ensure success. This would also enable you to use sulphates more reliably to kill off undesirable yeast fermentation that could spoil the flavor.

Temperature is also really important, since certain yeasts will thrive at one temperature but completely hibernate once it gets below a certain temperature - this is another important point if you need consistency, a lot of people use heating belts or mats under their ferment buckets to ensure the temp stays the same all the time. For me with my hundreds of 1.5L pet bottles of ghetto wine made from 7-11 grape juice (Cheap and really delicious btw, 155 yen per liter, no additives (very important - aspartame will not convert to alcohol and will leave a nasty sweetness even after ferment) and the wine tastes a bit like Pinot Noir), I just keep the bottles in my bedroom where the temperature is always around 17-25c. Summertime they'll need to be moved to a north area of the house to keep the ferments from going out of control and creating unusual flavors.

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Re: How to make persimmon vinegar

Post by gonbechan »

Oh my goodness, 7-11 pinot noir.
I am impressed.

You will HAVE to do a step by step with photos How To Pinot Noir.
It will be epic.

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Re: How to make persimmon vinegar

Post by paradoxbox »

Gaijinfarmer, if you can't sell the strong stuff before it spoils, consider making a powder or liquid extract out of it, mix it with some other good stuff like vitamins or even sugar and put it in gelcaps. Supplements like that aren't really regulated, and people will buy it.. been there done that - worked with the guy who made that company that does all the "shijimi extract" commercials. Just make sure to control the ph level of the final product or your customers will end up with ulcers..!

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Re: How to make persimmon vinegar

Post by Lazi »

You can make Pinot Noir from 7/11 grape juice ? My God man we need a thread documenting that, I'd give my right arm for an easy way to have Pinot Noir handy any time I wanted.

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Re: How to make persimmon vinegar

Post by Zasso Nouka »

Go on man, get a few sprightly old chaps on saying how it helps them get wood, nudge nudge, wink wink. Cut to a gaijin dressed in a lab coat saying how 'scientific' tests have proved it can add 50 years to your lifespan and your capsules will be selling like hot cakes :lol:

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Re: How to make persimmon vinegar

Post by paradoxbox »

I'll make a kind of pictorial about this maybe today or tomorrow but seriously guys it's simple stuff.

Most important thing besides the original juice is hygiene but even that is not really important when your ferments are only about 2 weeks - 3 weeks long.

You can use baker's yeast if you want real ghetto wine, prison hooch kinda thing. Doesn't taste great (bread flavor)
You can pick up proper wine yeast at Tokyu Hands or on Amazon.

If you wanna do things proper you should also by a hygrometer (hydrometer?) from a brewing/winemaking supplier. It's like a thermometer that sits in the liquid and just tells you how much sugar there is in the solution. But you don't even need this. This is just helpful for gauging how drunk you're gonna get off of one bottle.

BTW making alcohol stronger than 1% is technically illegal. Politicians here are idiots.

Anyway, the 7-11 grape juice is REALLY good stuff for wine making. It's NOT pinot noir (that can only be made using pinot grapes, which I doubt are the grapes used in 7-11 juice, probably Concord or muscadine), but a bit like pinot noir in that it's juicy, fruity, doesn't burn or have that heavy tannin flavor like a merlot or cabernet sauvignon.

You can also do the same thing with their apple juice to make a wonderful apple cider. Almost Christmas time guys, how about a spiced, hot, sparkling apple cider made at home?